Showing posts sorted by relevance for query doug petty. Sort by date Show all posts
Showing posts sorted by relevance for query doug petty. Sort by date Show all posts

Sunday, January 23, 2022

Greedy Doug Petty Decided a New Contract and Larger Raises for Himself Long Before the Board Took Up the Matter. Doug Petty is Clearly Manipulating and Controlling 7 Unprepared and Ill-Informed Board Members (2 of which have immediate family members working under Doug Petty)…


This is from Doug Petty’s Current Labor Agreement (the unexpired contract that the Lodi BOE is working to replace):


Link to current labor agreement:

 

Contract-Superintendent Petty.pdf (lodi.k12.nj.us)

 

This is from the 2021-2022 User Friendly Budget which was created a year ago. It should have listed $181,030. Instead it lists $192,000:



Link to user friendly budget (not a detailed budget) from the district website:

 

SAS System Output (lodi.k12.nj.us)

 

Doug Petty’s labor agreement is showing a $181,030 base salary for this year.  The district’s user-friendly budget is showing a $192,000 base salary for this school year before a new contract was ever approved or listed as an agenda item.

 

Seven Board Members have relinquished all responsibilities and duties to Doug Petty.  Lodi has returned to the old days of rubber-stamping and nothing else.  No reading. No researching.  No questioning.  No accountability.  Dennis Frohnapfel placed in writing that not one board member saw a copy of a detailed budget before they approved the budget and raised Lodi taxes.

 

Doug Petty’s actions and decisions with his own contract are the reason why Doug Petty and Dennis Frohnapfel are illegally denying the public access to a detailed budget. 


Being the Board has been so secretive and works without any transparency, they probably are giving Doug Petty more than what is listed on the user-friendly budget.

 

Doug Petty came to Lodi from Newark with no district wide experience as a superintendent or assistant superintendent.  He began his first year in Lodi by shutting down schools and having parents pick up packets on tables left out on school parking lots.  He increased school spending 8.4% in just 2 years.  His board members rubber-stamped his tax increases without ever seeing a budget.  They raised taxes at a time when Lodi was receiving millions more in state aid.   They removed all transparency measures that some people fought so hard to get in place.

 

Doug Petty should be elated that he was given an opportunity to work in Lodi and with a 5-year contract.  He is yet to earn the salary listed in his current contract.  He hasn’t proven himself as an effective superintendent or innovative leader.  It’s mind boggling that 7 board members are allowing him to write a new contract for himself to replace an unexpired one.  In Lodi, failure pays.  Literally.

 

Former Board Member Natalie Delgado who was the running mate of Nepotism Nancy and Sharon Salvacion was right when she said that Doug Petty was inexperienced and the wrong choice for Lodi.  She also shed light on how Doug Petty was shutting the board members out of some of the most important district matters such a school reopening plan.


 





Sunday, September 11, 2022

Nancy Cardone Didn't Only Turn Our School System into a Frat House for Mid Life Crises...

 

Unprofessionalism, Depravity, Corruption


Nancy Cardone spent her career covering up corruption and illegal behavior in our board office and in our schools.  Voting with the worst conflicts of interest was fine for Nancy Cardone.  Illegal payouts were fine for Nancy Cardone. Illegal contracts were fine for Nancy Cardone. Faking degrees was fine for Nancy Cardone. Viciously going after good employees as favors to family and friends was fine for Nancy Cardone.  Her son turning a principal's office into a frat house was fine for Nancy Cardone.  

Nancy Cardone believes that her appalling behavior is all fun and games.  Where did it get us?  Lodi taxpayers are now paying her Superintendent Douglas Petty $213,272 to supposedly "work from home" without any suspension.  Nancy Cardone tried to hide Doug Petty's arrest from the public.  Nancy Cardone was aware of Doug Petty's arrest before his mug shot began circulating the internet.  Doug Petty was arrested on August 28, 2022.

Doug Petty's mugshot and arrest details didn't begin circulating the internet until August 31, 2022.  Knowing about the arrest and hiding it from the public, Nancy Cardone still had Doug Petty parading around the Lodi schools like he was the king of the castle.  These people have no shame.  They are narcissistic and delusional.

What does Doug Petty not being suspended mean for our district?  Doug Petty is still administering our schools.  Doug Petty is still putting up all names to be hired and promoted.  Doug Petty is still handing out contracts.  Doug Petty is still in charge of Lodi's $76,291,558 budget.  Doug Petty is still supervising Nancy Cardone's son.

Nancy Cardone has made a mockery of our school system.  Nancy Cardone has violated public trust.  Nancy Cardone has earned your vote to throw her out of office.





Wednesday, March 22, 2023

Matthew Giacobbe is Cashing In On Doug Petty Cashing In.

 


Ask Nancy Cardone how much Matthew Giacobbe has billed Lodi in the past 7 months for matters related to Doug Petty.

 

Ask Nancy Cardone when Matthew Giacobbe first OPRA-ed any records from the Jersey Shore pertaining to Doug Petty’s arrest.

 

Ask Nancy Cardone why Matthew Giacobbe allowed the Board to replace an unexpired contract for Doug without the required public notices and public hearing:


Lodi By The Numbers: A Copy of Doug Petty's New Contract Signed by Nancy Cardone... (lodioverhaul.blogspot.com)

 

Lodi By The Numbers: Lodi BOE Gave Failed Superintendent Doug Petty a $27,000 Raise Tonight (Bypassing Required 30 Day Public Notice and Hearing for Replacing an UNEXPIRED Contract).. (lodioverhaul.blogspot.com)

 

Lodi By The Numbers: Greedy Doug Petty Decided a New Contract and Larger Raises for Himself Long Before the Board Took Up the Matter. Doug Petty is Clearly Manipulating and Controlling 7 Unprepared and Ill-Informed Board Members (2 of which have immediate family members working under Doug Petty)… (lodioverhaul.blogspot.com)

 

Lodi By The Numbers: As a Former School Board Member from Morris County, Douglas Petty is Aware of Laws Pertaining to the Altering of Unexpired Superintendent Contracts... (lodioverhaul.blogspot.com)

 

Ask Nancy Cardone why Matthew Giacobbe didn’t include any language in Doug Petty’s contract protecting the district from reputational damage if its top Administrator has his mug shot on every nightly news station.

 

Matthew Giacobbe can’t fix Lodi’s problems.  He is the problem.  He is responsible for the Doug Petty mess.  He wants to prolong this as long as he can because it’s a money-maker for him.

 



Monday, September 5, 2022

Loudmouth Lodi Teacher Union President Goes Silent When It Comes to Doug Petty in the News…

Photo taken from "Lodi Live"

It’s striking that LEA President Francine Santo did not issue a statement on Doug Petty’s arrest which was all over the news.  Teacher unions often defend criminal teachers, but they also often pounce on superintendents that get in trouble. 

This was reported by the New York Post:

“A traffic cop said he saw Petty, 46, punch a woman in the face with a closed fist on a street corner before, according to the document. 

When additional officers arrived, Petty was on top of another man on the sidewalk as the traffic cop attempted to break up the fight and struggled to put Petty in handcuffs.”

Why would a teacher union president not have a problem with someone working in the schools that was reported to have punched a woman in the face (witnessed by a traffic officer)? 

Why would a teacher union president who has something to say about everything and everyone not have something to say in the matter?

Why would a teacher union president not call for immediate suspension?

Why would a teacher union president not want to protect Lodi staff and students?

Board President Nancy Cardone and her sister-in-law Francine Santos control Doug Petty.  Francine Santos wants to be the next Lodi Principal.  Francine Santos wants to use a compromised Doug Petty to make her the next principal.

In 2018, Francine Santos tried to use her influence to become Columbus School Principal.  Don’t trust my word.  Ask her yourself.

This past summer, Doug Petty made Francine Santos a “Supervisor” for an extended year program held at Roosevelt school to try to dress up her resume so he can eventually make her principal.  


Francine Santo cares about Francine Santos.  She could care less about representing other school staff in a fair and respectable manner.

Doug Petty understands that Francine Santos is the sister-in-law of Board President Nancy Cardone.  Doug Petty sucks up bad to the teacher’s union and has spent his school time putting up teacher union posts on his official school social media accounts.  It’s quite bizarre that Doug Petty has to post about NJEA news on a school account that is supposed to be about education.








 

 

 

Wednesday, November 24, 2021

Douglas Petty Should Also Be Terminated for Hiring a Crackpot like Dennis Frohnapfel, Hiding Public Records, etc.

Instead of addressing Dennis Frohnapfel's misconduct and violations, Lodi Superintendent Doug Petty condones it and even encourages it.

Doug Petty was never prepared for his position. From day, he was making comments that he would have to reach out to the Superintendents at the South Bergen Jointure to find out how to do the most basic things.

Doug Petty has wasted Lodi's money, time,  and resources.  His spending sprees have been irresponsible and nearsighted. His tax increases would be enormous if it weren't for the millions more in state aid Lodi has received.  

Doug Petty has allowed the politician run firm "Giacobbe" to rip off the town. The Superintendent and BA are supposed to oversee those bills (screen who is using the attorneys and for what purposes).

Doug Petty has failed to hire and retain a real BA and Supervisor of Special Services (2 of the most important positions). 

There is less transparency under  Petty than anyone before him. There are more OPRA violations under Petty than anyone before him. 

Doug Petty was the wrong choice for Lodi. There was a lot of in house talent a lot better than Petty. There were lots of outside applicants a lot better than Petty. 

For the record,  I had nothing to do with the hiring of Doug Petty. I also never voted to approve Giacobbe's initial contract and I voted "No" on every single Giacobbe bill that ever came before me because I saw early on how dishonest and unethical the firm behaved before the board was ever given an opportunity to negotiate the terms of a contract.



Monday, September 5, 2022

Lodi Has Seen Enough. Doug Petty Should Be Removed Immediately Along With All Board Members that Enabled Him.


The allegations in the affidavit are horrifying.


Besides Doug Petty's personal problems, he has been a horrible superintendent.  He blew through millions and millions in State aid while padding his pockets and the pockets of Lodi's political families.  He undid all transparency measures that I and a few others worked very hard to implement. He hides public records from residents including detailed budgets and legal invoices.  He has become nothing more of a political pawn of Board President Nancy Cardone and her Sister-in-Law, Teacher Union President Francine Santos.


Doug Petty is reckless with public funds and is unfit to be anywhere near one more school budget.  Ten million dollar budget increases are outrageous.  


The school board members (other than Paula Cortez) sit there like lumps on a log.  They grin at Doug Petty and vote YES in unison.  They removed all forms of checks and balance and accountability.  They allowed Petty to do all hiring over the summer without board meetings or board approval.  They put a system in place where they are nothing more than bodies that show up occasionally and rubber-stamp.  Petty and Frohnapfel put in writing that the board members approve budgets without ever being provided a detailed budget.  


Doug Petty and his puppets went from an interim business administrator who acted bizarre at meetings, spent like crazy, and refused to answer to the public to a business administrator with no BA experience and many red flags from his prior employments.


The Lodi Superintendent and Board of Education are totally dysfunctional and have been for a long time.  It is only coming to light now.


The people of Lodi need to wake up and take action.  It is essential that Doug Petty be removed immediately, and Nancy Cardone be removed this November.


Past posts on Doug Petty:

https://lodioverhaul.blogspot.com/search?q=doug+petty















Sunday, December 11, 2022

Because the Lodi BOE Chose to Hire Incompetent Paramus Politicians instead of Legitimate School Attorneys, Doug Petty is Still Being Paid $17,781/Month Not to Work and Continues Collecting Under an Illegal Contract…

Lagana’s lackey, Joseph Garcia, was never pro-active in the Doug Petty matter.  He continues to waste Lodi taxpayers’ money and time.  His incompetence and failures are overlooked because Joseph Lagana got Garcia his job at “Cleary Giacobbe” and pays for Garcia's public positions through campaign contributions. 

Reminder:  Doug Petty’s current contract that replaced an unexpired contract was approved illegally because the Board was represented by the politician run firm "Cleary Giacobbe".  

Lodi By The Numbers: A Copy of Doug Petty's New Contract Signed by Nancy Cardone... (lodioverhaul.blogspot.com)

Lodi By The Numbers: Lodi BOE Gave Failed Superintendent Doug Petty a $27,000 Raise Tonight (Bypassing Required 30 Day Public Notice and Hearing for Replacing an UNEXPIRED Contract).. (lodioverhaul.blogspot.com)

Lodi By The Numbers: Greedy Doug Petty Decided a New Contract and Larger Raises for Himself Long Before the Board Took Up the Matter. Doug Petty is Clearly Manipulating and Controlling 7 Unprepared and Ill-Informed Board Members (2 of which have immediate family members working under Doug Petty)… (lodioverhaul.blogspot.com)

Lodi By The Numbers: As a Former School Board Member from Morris County, Douglas Petty is Aware of Laws Pertaining to the Altering of Unexpired Superintendent Contracts... (lodioverhaul.blogspot.com)

Lodi taxpayers are paying a high price for incompetent Paramus politicians that pay for public contracts. 






 

Saturday, December 24, 2022

2022: Most Viewed Posts of the Year (Listed in Order with the Top Being #1)


Sunday, August 20, 2023

Last Month, Doug Petty Received a $5,334 Pay Raise for Not Working an Entire Year…

Doug Petty’s Salary for last School Year: $213,373


Doug Petty’s Salary Effective July 2023: $218,706


Reminder, the Lodi taxpayers paid Doug Petty an entire year NOT to work and then gave him a raise while he is employed under an ILLEGAL CONTRACT:

 

Lodi By The Numbers: A Copy of Doug Petty's New Contract Signed by Nancy Cardone... (lodioverhaul.blogspot.com)

 

Lodi By The Numbers: Lodi BOE Gave Failed Superintendent Doug Petty a $27,000 Raise Tonight (Bypassing Required 30 Day Public Notice and Hearing for Replacing an UNEXPIRED Contract).. (lodioverhaul.blogspot.com)


At the direction of Nancy Cardone and Sharon Salvacion, these current Board members voted to replace Petty's unexpired contract illegally by bypassing the required public notices, wait times, and public hearings:

Laura Cima 

John Cannizzaro  

Jocelyn Anderson

Yadiria Jimenez

These Board members cost Lodi taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars for being lazy, irresponsible, and negligent.  Laura Cima is another Lodi PHD from Seton Hall that wants to be called "Doctor" while doing the dumbest things.






Tuesday, June 28, 2022

Doug Petty Serves Himself. Doug Petty Serves Nancy Cardone. Doug Petty Serves the Luna Family. Doug Petty Doesn't Serve Lodi Students.

 

Doug Petty's recent choice for the Child Study Team (shown below) should come as no surprise to anyone following how Petty's BOE has operated in recent years. Certain alternate route teachers move up the ranks quite fast in Lodi.





Saturday, December 24, 2022

Doug Petty Is Back in the News this Week for His Alleged Negligence as Newark Principal...

Link to story:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nj.com/essex/2022/12/suit-says-newark-school-officials-ignored-bullying-of-special-ed-student-before-sex-assault.html%3foutputType=amp

Doug Petty continues to be paid by Lodi not to work because Lodi has a really bad board attorney and some really bad board members.

What did Laura Cima see in Doug Petty when she led Nancy Cardone's efforts to get him a $27,000 raise? Can she please explain?  What did anyone in Lodi ever see in Doug Petty?  

Doug Petty spent his time in Lodi doing favors for the Luna and Cardone families so they would allow him to continue hiring all his friends from Hanover, Newark, his high school days, etc.




Saturday, September 3, 2022

A Quote for Doug Petty, Donald Scorzetti, the Cardones, Matthew Giacobbe, Vinny Martin, and Others That Abuse Their Public Positions to Get Rich Fast...


Too many Lodi politicians put their love of money before everything else.  They serve themselves and not the public.  They are more concerned about their fancy cars, shore houses, and other shiny things than they are about doing a decent job or being decent people.  In the end, they destroy themselves.  They are more miserable than anyone that is living simply and being grateful.


People like Doug Petty and Donald Scorzetti have shown that their number one priority is taking as much as they can from the people of Lodi without earning it.  They have done so by manipulating Lodi politicians to make them rich off of the backs of hardworking Lodi taxpayers.  They never earned their outrageous contracts, raises, and other excesses.  Instead, they used politics and backroom deals.  


Below are two public contracts that all Lodi taxpayers should review thoroughly.  Many people have no idea how much they are paying Doug Petty and Donald Scorzetti as both abuse their power and serve themselves:


Link to post containing Doug Petty’s contract:

 

Lodi By The Numbers: A Copy of Doug Petty's New Contract Signed by Nancy Cardone... (lodioverhaul.blogspot.com)

 

Link to post containing Donald Scorzetti’s contract:

 

Lodi By The Numbers: Behind the Public’s Back and Omitted From All May Agendas, the Lodi Mayor and Council Voted Unanimously to Give Donald Scorzetti 4% ANNUAL RAISES (Leading to a $246,903.74 Salary)… (lodioverhaul.blogspot.com)






Monday, October 17, 2022

Dennis Frohnapfel, Nancy Cardone, and Douglas Petty Must Be Investigated for Theft of Public Funds. Nobody Can Produce Any Records or Account for the $20,173.34 Dennis Frohnapfel Took in July.

 

Douglas Petty, Nancy Cardone, Dennis Frohnapfel

In July, Dennis Frohnafpel was paid $20,173.34 by the Lodi Board of Education right before he abruptly left with no explanation from Nancy Cardone or Doug Petty.  This was the most he was ever paid by the BOE.  The Board of Education did not even hold any board meetings in July.

 

Interim business administrators were always paid per day (hours actually worked). Invoices must be submitted for additional pay (if attendance is requested by the Board President for a Board Meeting held at night).  The basis for the interim BA’s monthly pay has always been attendance records and time sheets.

 

Two OPRA requests for Dennis Frohnapfel’s time sheets which are necessary to explain his pay in the month of July produced zero records in return.  This is contradictory to past requests which produced something like this (the second most Frohnapfel was ever paid which was in March):


Lodi By The Numbers: Dennis Frohnapfel, an “Interim” that Removed All Transparency Measures and Is Not Performing All Duties is Being Paid More than Real BAs. (lodioverhaul.blogspot.com)

A public entity funded by local and State tax dollars must be able to produce records to account for payments going to public employees.  The Lodi Board of Education failed this basic accounting principle.


Douglas Petty was required to sign off on Dennis Frohnapfel’s time sheets.  Board President Nancy Cardone was required to sign off on Dennis Frohnapfel’s payments.  Where are the time sheets?  What did Doug Petty and Nancy Cardone sign before Dennis Frohnapfel received his payment and ran out the door?  Douglas Petty and Nancy Cardone must be investigated and held accountable for allowing this payment and not producing any records with their signatures.

 

The Board Office is producing no records for Frohnapfel’s last payout- only stating that the payments were contractual.  That isn’t true.  Look at all the previous monthly payrolls that I posted on this blog to see for yourself.

 

I was the Board President at one point, so I know what goes on.  The interims are paid based on an hourly rate using time sheets and attendance records.  The Superintendent is required to sign off on the time sheets to verify the hours were actually worked.  The Board President has to sign off on the payments.  When I was Board President, I caught the previous interim Business Administrator, Robert Brown, submitting invoices for additional payments for hours never worked.  I caught him adding hours to time sheets after I already signed them.  I also believe someone forged Frank Quatrone’s signature to one of Brown’s time sheets (Quatrone retired week earlier).  I immediately went to Kathryn Fedina and demanded this issue be addressed.  Forced to act only after my complaint, Fedina recouped the monies for the Lodi taxpayers by deducting it from Robert Brown’s next payment. There should have been a harsh penalty.

 

I know that people can be dishonest.  When public officials get caught, the attitude is always “it’s only a few thousand dollars”.  That’s not acceptable.  It's the taxpayers’ money.  There should be zero tolerance for any fraud or theft.  There must be penalties and consequences.  There must be checks and balance.  There must be proper accounting.

 

Shown below are Dennis Frohnapfel’s last two contracts.  You can’t word something to pay an interim for days/hours actually worked and then say you are paying 12 equal installments.  That is contradictory.  Every month should be different.  This is what happens when you have crappy attorneys like you do with the politician run Matthew Giacobbe firm.  Interims get paid for hours “actually worked”.  They don’t get set salary plus a whole bunch of additional payments that nobody can account for. 


The contracts also set a cap on total payment and that was never adhered to by this Board of Education, Doug Petty, and the Giacobbe attorneys.  If Dennis Frohnapfel was capped at $83,600 for six months, how can the BOE pay him $20,173,34 for the first month of his contract alone?


Link to Frohnapfel’s contract that began July 2022:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-yiD-HvjSN8OsKMHRMgEEq5dCuOc-S5b/view?usp=sharing




Link to Frohnapfel’s previous contract July 2021 thru June 2022:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AnpGQdQHVwzUKRxwGHvQzXWkYGp5JWpf/view?usp=sharing




 







Thursday, April 28, 2022

Lodi's Projected School Aid Numbers Show an Increase of More than $5M (20.6% Increase). More Money for Petty, Frohnapfel and Cardone to Pocket. Millions More for Them to Spend Without Any Oversight. Sadly, No Tax Relief for the Struggling Lodi Taxpayers.

Doug Petty and Dennis Frohnapfel continually violate the Open Public Records Act to hide what they are doing with the millions more in additional state aid that they have been receiving each year.  They have violated public trust and are unfit to manage Lodi's shockingly high $77M proposed school budget. They have disdain for the residents of Lodi. The are arrogant about their anti-taxpayer activism.

Dennis Frohnapfel has had problems in multiple districts in recent years.  He has short lived stints that end badly.  He puts districts and taxpayers in very bad situations before he is gone.  He was recently going to resign from Lodi but then decided to stay so he can increase Lodi's budget by $8M.

It is no surprise that Dennis Frohnapfel has undone all transparency measures that were put in place between 2017 and 2019.  He has emotional meltdowns when questioned about district finances (his bizarre behavior has been provided on video).  

Dennis Frohnapfel boasts that board members approve his budgets without ever reading them.  He boasts that he won't even provide board members with a "detailed budget".  If that's not a red flag, I don't know what is.

Douglas Petty is no better. A superintendent deficient in financial literacy should have hired a real business administrator instead of another overpaid interim (the other districts' reject). 

Douglas Petty inserts himself in the selection of board trustees. How inappropriate and unethical is that?  He needs members that won't question him.  He needs members that won't read budgets.  He needs members that go along with hiding public records regarding finances.  He needs members that will rubber stamp $27,000 raises for himself.

When an overtaxed town like Lodi receives millions more in additional aid, it should be used to significantly lower the school tax levy.  It should be done, could be done, and was done from 2017 to 2019.  Taxes were lowered when Lodi was receiving a fraction of state aid that it is currently receiving.  Taxes were lowered while millions more were being invested in education.

Doug Petty and the Cardone family will always tell you that their tax increases are "for the children".  Look at the raises they just got for themselves.  The tax increases are for them, not the children.  The Lodi taxpayers are working to support the Cardone Family and Doug Petty's lavish lifestyle.

Lodi taxpayers likely are unaware of the millions more in aid coming Lodi's way.  Inform your neighbors.  When you see board members, demand tax relief.  The last thing you want is Dennis Frohnapfel managing your money.  There is no oversight from most of the board.  The State provides no oversight.  Lodi taxpayers must wake up and fill the oversight void.


Post Date: March 29, 2022

 


Tuesday, April 12, 2022

Lodi's Woke Superintendent And His Board Puppets Are Not Protecting Lodi Families (or even informing them about what is coming)...

Link to story:

https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2022/04/12/schoolhouse-sickos-new-jersey-lesson-plan-endorses-puberty-blockers-to-fifth-graders-to-manage-teen-years/

Shorty after becoming superintendent, Doug Petty placed a revised transgender policy on a meeting agenda without ever discussing it with board members or informing the public.  The revisions took rights away from parents (what communists do when indoctrinating the youth).  Doug Petty never informed Lodi parents about what he was doing. The sleazy Giacobbe firm assisted him.  The Giacobbe firm always advised to enact controversial policies without any public discussion or transparency. A newspaper article about the policy is linked below:

https://lodioverhaul.blogspot.com/2019/12/just-another-reason-why-all-families.html?m=1

After that article came out, Doug Petty met with activist high school students to smooth things over with them.  He never met with their guardians to explain how the district was erasing them from their children's lives (children as young as the first grade).

I learned early on that Doug Petty was a member of the woke cult. Therefore Lodi families cannot expect him or the sleazy Giacobbe firm to protect Lodi's young children from the filth being sent to them in September.  Lodi families need to research the new sex ed curriculum for themselves and fight for their right not to be part of it.

I could only imagine the sick policies the Lodi BOE has been approving over the last few years. The board stopped posting the policies online with the agendas and that should tell you something.